Comments on: There is no clue as to escape routes: Leigh on Cerebus #2 http://cereblog.org/2009/01/08/there-is-no-clue-as-to-escape-routes-leigh-on-cerebus-2/ Just another WordPress.com weblog Sat, 18 Jul 2009 10:27:06 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Laura Hudson http://cereblog.org/2009/01/08/there-is-no-clue-as-to-escape-routes-leigh-on-cerebus-2/#comment-179 Laura Hudson Thu, 12 Feb 2009 03:11:00 +0000 http://cereblog.org/?p=46#comment-179 I'm intrigued... Let's discuss. I’m intrigued… Let’s discuss.

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By: Leigh Walton http://cereblog.org/2009/01/08/there-is-no-clue-as-to-escape-routes-leigh-on-cerebus-2/#comment-178 Leigh Walton Thu, 12 Feb 2009 03:08:16 +0000 http://cereblog.org/?p=46#comment-178 As for the "third reviewer": I hadn't considered it until now, but I wouldn't be opposed to calling in a guest blogger every now and then. I can think of a few folks who would be fun guests. Laura, what do you think? As for the “third reviewer”: I hadn’t considered it until now, but I wouldn’t be opposed to calling in a guest blogger every now and then. I can think of a few folks who would be fun guests. Laura, what do you think?

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By: Leigh Walton http://cereblog.org/2009/01/08/there-is-no-clue-as-to-escape-routes-leigh-on-cerebus-2/#comment-177 Leigh Walton Thu, 12 Feb 2009 03:06:54 +0000 http://cereblog.org/?p=46#comment-177 Hi Mateo, Thanks for the kind words. The "rule" in question isn't from any particular list, I just think it's common sense to have your captions occur simultaneously with your images, rather than narrate an exciting event, continue with two more paragraphs of narration, and THEN finally show the exciting event. Hi Mateo,

Thanks for the kind words. The “rule” in question isn’t from any particular list, I just think it’s common sense to have your captions occur simultaneously with your images, rather than narrate an exciting event, continue with two more paragraphs of narration, and THEN finally show the exciting event.

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By: mateo http://cereblog.org/2009/01/08/there-is-no-clue-as-to-escape-routes-leigh-on-cerebus-2/#comment-168 mateo Sun, 08 Feb 2009 04:01:01 +0000 http://cereblog.org/?p=46#comment-168 I also found the reference about the 'rules of storytelling' problematic. I don't know the rules, so if you had told us which rule it was breaking in your original post maybe I would have better understood. Having read comics since before I could even read text, I tend to have a pretty clear idea of what is happening on the page before I ever get to the text, especially on the splash pages. I don't think Sim really hit his stride until the fifteenth issue or so, and have no problem with critiquing style or storytelling here or later, I just found that part confusing. Overall though, I really appreciate the work you've done so far, and while skeptical about the completion of such an ambitious project, I would love to see you two follow through. Any chance seeing a third reviewer? Laura's mom's reviews are what got me here in the first place. I also found the reference about the ‘rules of storytelling’ problematic. I don’t know the rules, so if you had told us which rule it was breaking in your original post maybe I would have better understood. Having read comics since before I could even read text, I tend to have a pretty clear idea of what is happening on the page before I ever get to the text, especially on the splash pages.
I don’t think Sim really hit his stride until the fifteenth issue or so, and have no problem with critiquing style or storytelling here or later, I just found that part confusing.
Overall though, I really appreciate the work you’ve done so far, and while skeptical about the completion of such an ambitious project, I would love to see you two follow through.
Any chance seeing a third reviewer? Laura’s mom’s reviews are what got me here in the first place.

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By: Leigh Walton http://cereblog.org/2009/01/08/there-is-no-clue-as-to-escape-routes-leigh-on-cerebus-2/#comment-56 Leigh Walton Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:12:08 +0000 http://cereblog.org/?p=46#comment-56 Thanks for the comment, Kenny. I agree that there's generally a "peripheral effect" whereby the images on a page register with the reader before you officially arrive at a given panel -- from the moment you turn the page, really. In this sequence, it's true that the reader is anticipating combat from the moment of the page turn (splash pages have the effect of signaling their contents even further in advance). Of course, the reader should be anticipating combat anyway, given the tropes of the genre and the suspicious foreshadowing of page 1. But I don't agree that this transition is effective. By placing a (very thickly bordered) inset panel near the top of page 2, Sim visually isolates the top paragraph of narration -- practically making it a panel unto itself. It would actually be a textbook example of how to ensure that readers read the caption <i>before</i> reading the image. If that inset panel were removed, I might buy your point -- that the whole panorama is a single unit, meant to be absorbed simultaneously. Also, who said anything about superheroes? The "Marvel-style" reference came up because I was reminded of a specific storytelling mannerism that arose from the specific production process that Marvel creators used in the 60s. It wouldn't happen in EC comics, for instance, because (in my understanding) EC artists received their assignments with the panels and lettering already completed. If you're worried about me trying to read the entire series through the lens of a superhero comics fan... I think you can relax. Thanks for the comment, Kenny. I agree that there’s generally a “peripheral effect” whereby the images on a page register with the reader before you officially arrive at a given panel — from the moment you turn the page, really. In this sequence, it’s true that the reader is anticipating combat from the moment of the page turn (splash pages have the effect of signaling their contents even further in advance). Of course, the reader should be anticipating combat anyway, given the tropes of the genre and the suspicious foreshadowing of page 1.

But I don’t agree that this transition is effective. By placing a (very thickly bordered) inset panel near the top of page 2, Sim visually isolates the top paragraph of narration — practically making it a panel unto itself. It would actually be a textbook example of how to ensure that readers read the caption before reading the image. If that inset panel were removed, I might buy your point — that the whole panorama is a single unit, meant to be absorbed simultaneously.

Also, who said anything about superheroes? The “Marvel-style” reference came up because I was reminded of a specific storytelling mannerism that arose from the specific production process that Marvel creators used in the 60s. It wouldn’t happen in EC comics, for instance, because (in my understanding) EC artists received their assignments with the panels and lettering already completed.

If you’re worried about me trying to read the entire series through the lens of a superhero comics fan… I think you can relax.

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By: Leigh Walton http://cereblog.org/2009/01/08/there-is-no-clue-as-to-escape-routes-leigh-on-cerebus-2/#comment-54 Leigh Walton Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:35:38 +0000 http://cereblog.org/?p=46#comment-54 Different strokes for different folks, RJ, but Eshnosopur, Panrovy, Dehrsion, Serrea… these all sound like typos to me. Different strokes for different folks, RJ, but Eshnosopur, Panrovy, Dehrsion, Serrea… these all sound like typos to me.

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By: Kenny http://cereblog.org/2009/01/08/there-is-no-clue-as-to-escape-routes-leigh-on-cerebus-2/#comment-52 Kenny Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:00:26 +0000 http://cereblog.org/?p=46#comment-52 "Visually, we don’t even get to the action for another two paragraphs after that! I guess you could argue that he’s trying to replicate the effect of being caught by surprise, but it’s breaking one of the basic rules of comic storytelling, in this case to detrimental effect." I don't agree with this comment at all. In comics, the picture speaks first, then the words. So, if a story opens with a fight and we don't know one or more of the parties, we can safely assume the text will tell us who they are. (Or, maybe we're not supposed to know who they are and the creator is trying to say something else all together.) Maybe addressing the action immediately is a rule of storytelling in superhero comics, but it's certainly not a rule in comic storytelling. Also, I think if you limit your analysis to the sort of analysis that pertains specifically to superheroes, you'll be doing a serious disservice to your project. The approach won't work as you get farther and farther into the stories. Sim was never very interested in using Cerebus as a stepping stone to the Big 2, so he often went off and experimented with his own ideas. The two page spread you referenced is just such an example. Sim was trying to write Tolkein-like text to accompany the comic art. Did it work? No, not very well. He wasn't trying to emulate any established superhero creator, though. I feel analyzing the work solely in the context of Marvel and DC artists is also a mistake. Sim was never just pulling from those sources. I think what you guys are trying to do here is wonderful in its ambitiousness and I hope you succeed. “Visually, we don’t even get to the action for another two paragraphs after that! I guess you could argue that he’s trying to replicate the effect of being caught by surprise, but it’s breaking one of the basic rules of comic storytelling, in this case to detrimental effect.”

I don’t agree with this comment at all. In comics, the picture speaks first, then the words. So, if a story opens with a fight and we don’t know one or more of the parties, we can safely assume the text will tell us who they are. (Or, maybe we’re not supposed to know who they are and the creator is trying to say something else all together.) Maybe addressing the action immediately is a rule of storytelling in superhero comics, but it’s certainly not a rule in comic storytelling.

Also, I think if you limit your analysis to the sort of analysis that pertains specifically to superheroes, you’ll be doing a serious disservice to your project. The approach won’t work as you get farther and farther into the stories. Sim was never very interested in using Cerebus as a stepping stone to the Big 2, so he often went off and experimented with his own ideas. The two page spread you referenced is just such an example. Sim was trying to write Tolkein-like text to accompany the comic art. Did it work? No, not very well. He wasn’t trying to emulate any established superhero creator, though.

I feel analyzing the work solely in the context of Marvel and DC artists is also a mistake. Sim was never just pulling from those sources.

I think what you guys are trying to do here is wonderful in its ambitiousness and I hope you succeed.

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By: Jeff Tundis http://cereblog.org/2009/01/08/there-is-no-clue-as-to-escape-routes-leigh-on-cerebus-2/#comment-45 Jeff Tundis Wed, 14 Jan 2009 00:14:39 +0000 http://cereblog.org/?p=46#comment-45 There was no need of a plot in those early days, really. It was half homage to BWS' Conan, and half Gerber's Howard the Duck; the book that provided Dave with the basic "one animal in a world of humans" paradigm. Also, Dave never knew if the book would survive from one issue to the next, so inserting long storylines was foolish at that point. Not just BWS was an inspiration, but Neal Adams - the artist he "rips off" for the spiral descent page you like so much. Adams did tons of stuff like that in Deadman. The Michael Loubert essays are called The Aardvarkian Age. All fairly short. Excerpts from larger, imaginary works - like the Book Of Stoth. Another nod to Conan-esque word structure. I made a larger map incorporating all of Loubert's maps, combined with text references from the series. You can see it at www.CerebusTheAardvark.com in the MAPS section. Michael is also an author who wrote under the name An Clovis (Clovis' Beard!) and he came up with many of the map names. It was just a fun thing for him to do, so you'll see echoes of R.E. Howard, Michael Moorcock, etc, throughout the world of Estarcion. There was no need of a plot in those early days, really. It was half homage to BWS’ Conan, and half Gerber’s Howard the Duck; the book that provided Dave with the basic “one animal in a world of humans” paradigm.

Also, Dave never knew if the book would survive from one issue to the next, so inserting long storylines was foolish at that point.

Not just BWS was an inspiration, but Neal Adams – the artist he “rips off” for the spiral descent page you like so much. Adams did tons of stuff like that in Deadman.

The Michael Loubert essays are called The Aardvarkian Age. All fairly short. Excerpts from larger, imaginary works – like the Book Of Stoth. Another nod to Conan-esque word structure.

I made a larger map incorporating all of Loubert’s maps, combined with text references from the series. You can see it at http://www.CerebusTheAardvark.com in the MAPS section.

Michael is also an author who wrote under the name An Clovis (Clovis’ Beard!) and he came up with many of the map names. It was just a fun thing for him to do, so you’ll see echoes of R.E. Howard, Michael Moorcock, etc, throughout the world of Estarcion.

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By: Linda S http://cereblog.org/2009/01/08/there-is-no-clue-as-to-escape-routes-leigh-on-cerebus-2/#comment-43 Linda S Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:26:49 +0000 http://cereblog.org/?p=46#comment-43 Yes, Dave was very much influenced by Barry Smith (Among others) way back then and made no secret of the fact. He admitted that it was around issue number 6 that he began to find his own artistic "voice" and began exploring his own style, separate from his influences. He realized his work didn't need to look like someone else's and he found it quite liberating and freeing. At this point, he's still trying to look like his influences. I remember him talking about this back at the "Swords Of Cerebus" release party. In this issue I enjoyed the contrast between the muscle guy with sword drawn realistically and the very cartoonish Cerebus. Even at that early stage in the series Dave could blend the realistic with the absurd and make it somehow work. Yes, Dave was very much influenced by Barry Smith (Among others) way back then and made no secret of the fact. He admitted that it was around issue number 6 that he began to find his own artistic “voice” and began exploring his own style, separate from his influences. He realized his work didn’t need to look like someone else’s and he found it quite liberating and freeing. At this point, he’s still trying to look like his influences. I remember him talking about this back at the “Swords Of Cerebus” release party. In this issue I enjoyed the contrast between the muscle guy with sword drawn realistically and the very cartoonish Cerebus. Even at that early stage in the series Dave could blend the realistic with the absurd and make it somehow work.

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By: Kim Scarborough http://cereblog.org/2009/01/08/there-is-no-clue-as-to-escape-routes-leigh-on-cerebus-2/#comment-42 Kim Scarborough Sat, 10 Jan 2009 16:10:19 +0000 http://cereblog.org/?p=46#comment-42 Michael Loubert also wrote a few essays on the various locations in Estarcion; their history and culture, and so forth. I know he did one on Palnu, for example. Michael Loubert also wrote a few essays on the various locations in Estarcion; their history and culture, and so forth. I know he did one on Palnu, for example.

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